A person has died and arrangements are being made to hold a funeral or
cremation.

Some of the service attendees live with a hearing loss and require
communication support such as live speech to text reporting or sign
language interpreting. This is typically £65 per hour plus travel time
and travel costs.

Question 1. Whose legal responsibility is it to organise and provide
this under the Equality Act 2010?

Is it the undertakers?
Is it the chucrh/place of worship etc/crematorium chapel?
Is is the the people who have instructed the undertakers and
church/place of worship/Crematorium Chapel?
Is it the hearing impaired audience member?

Question 2:

Who pays for this?

The hearing imapired audience members?
The undertakers?
The Church/Place of worship/Crematorium chapel?
The estate of the person paying for their own burial/cremation service?

On 18/01/2024 14:50, SH wrote:
>
>
> A person has died and arrangements are being made to hold a funeral or
> cremation.
>
> Some of the service attendees live with a hearing loss and require
> communication support such as live speech to text reporting or sign
> language interpreting. This is typically £65 per hour plus travel time
> and travel costs.
>
> Question 1. Whose legal responsibility is it to organise and provide
> this under the Equality Act 2010?

Surely, that's begging the question of whether providing a BSL
interpreter is a 'reasonable adjustment' under the EA? If it isn't, then
there is no legal requirement for anyone to do anything, although that
doesn't preclude arrangements being made voluntarily.

There is a case on this
https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2021/2108.pdf which concluded
that a BSL interpreter should have been provided, but that was in the
context of the COVID briefings, a matter of national importance being
broadcast to the whole nation.

It is interesting that that was judged to be necessary despite the BBC
providing subtitles.

To be sure that anyone has a legal responsibility iro an ordinary
funeral (ordinary, as in not the late Queen, say), you would need to
find a higher court judgment to that effect relating to a similar event.
I very much doubt there is one.

Clearly, in the context of a single ordinary funeral, it would not make
sense to launch proceedings about this. Apart from the legal costs
vastly exceeding the cost of a BSL interpreter, the funeral would take
place long before the case could be heard. Maybe, somebody will bring
such a case, simply to set a precedent, although there's a risk that the
judgment would not go the way they want.

On 18/01/2024 14:50, SH wrote:
>
>
> A person has died and arrangements are being made to hold a funeral or
> cremation.
>
> Some of the service attendees live with a hearing loss and require
> communication support such as live speech to text reporting or sign
> language interpreting. This is typically £65 per hour plus travel time
> and travel costs.
>
> Question 1. Whose legal responsibility is it to organise and provide
> this under the Equality Act 2010?
>
> Is it the undertakers?
> Is it the chucrh/place of worship etc/crematorium chapel?
> Is is the the people who have instructed the undertakers and
> church/place of worship/Crematorium Chapel?
> Is it the hearing impaired audience member?
>
> Question 2:
>
> Who pays for this?
>
> The hearing imapired audience members?
> The undertakers?
> The Church/Place of worship/Crematorium chapel?
> The estate of the person paying for their own burial/cremation service?
>

I rather doubt this will be the only occasion that any of them find the
need to have communication support, so it might be a good idea to find
out first whether any actually need any additional aid. They probably
don't carry a BSL interpreter in their pockets, but may well have a
speech to text app on their phones, or just be good at lip reading.

--
Colin Bignell

On 18/01/2024 15:42, Colin Bignell wrote:

>> Question 1. Whose legal responsibility is it
>
> I rather doubt this will be the only occasion that any of them find the
> need to have communication support, so it might be a good idea to find
> out first whether any actually need any additional aid. They probably
> don't carry a BSL interpreter in their pockets, but may well have a
> speech to text app on their phones, or just be good at lip reading.
>

I find the question difficult to follow, really.

We have a family funeral tomorrow, and we would simply do whatever is
necessary to accommodate any needs of anyone who will be there. There
would be no discussion about the costs, and certainly no question about
legal responsibilities.

So, I'm wondering whether there is a complicated family history behind
the OP which makes it necessary to go beyond simply being nice to the
people attending?

On 18/01/2024 16:02, GB wrote:
> On 18/01/2024 15:42, Colin Bignell wrote:
>
>>> Question 1. Whose legal responsibility is it
>>
>> I rather doubt this will be the only occasion that any of them find
>> the need to have communication support, so it might be a good idea to
>> find out first whether any actually need any additional aid. They
>> probably don't carry a BSL interpreter in their pockets, but may well
>> have a speech to text app on their phones, or just be good at lip
>> reading.
>>
>
> I find the question difficult to follow, really.

It is a question I would have first put to the funeral directors. Again,
it won't be the first time they have encountered such a need. They might
even have something like a large LCD screen that can display live speech
to text.
> We have a family funeral tomorrow, and we would simply do whatever is
> necessary to accommodate any needs of anyone who will be there. There
> would be no discussion about the costs, and certainly no question about
> legal responsibilities.
>
> So, I'm wondering whether there is a complicated family history behind
> the OP which makes it necessary to go beyond simply being nice to the
> people attending?

--
Colin Bignell

On 18/01/2024 15:26, GB wrote:
> On 18/01/2024 14:50, SH wrote:
>>
>>
>> A person has died and arrangements are being made to hold a funeral or
>> cremation.
>>
>> Some of the service attendees live with a hearing loss and require
>> communication support such as live speech to text reporting or sign
>> language interpreting. This is typically £65 per hour plus travel time
>> and travel costs.
>>
>> Question 1. Whose legal responsibility is it to organise and provide
>> this under the Equality Act 2010?
>
> Surely, that's begging the question of whether providing a BSL
> interpreter is a 'reasonable adjustment' under the EA? If it isn't, then
> there is no legal requirement for anyone to do anything, although that
> doesn't preclude arrangements being made voluntarily.

Providing BSL or STTR *is* a legal reasonable adjustment under the EQ
2010 when requested.

The questino focuseed on whose responsibility it is to organise and who
has to fund it.

> There is a case on this
> https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2021/2108.pdf which concluded
> that a BSL interpreter should have been provided, but that was in the
> context of the COVID briefings, a matter of national importance being
> broadcast to the whole nation.
>
> It is interesting that that was judged to be necessary despite the BBC
> providing subtitles.
>

BSL is a language in its own right. BSL does not have a written or a
spoken or a heard form at all.

So it is actually possible to be fluent in BSL but actually be unable to
read or write English.

Additionally some deaf people may be dyslexic so BSL is preferred over
written English.

This is where Speech to Text reporting (a.k.a Palantype or Stenograph
Court reports before the introcuction of CD vioce recorders.) The
reported verbaitim text is then displayed on a large TV scree and STTR
can type as fast as 300 words per minutew which is faster than we speak.

Many of the STTRs who now work for the deaf used to be court reporters
or do Hansard in Parliament or Lords.

> To be sure that anyone has a legal responsibility iro an ordinary
> funeral (ordinary, as in not the late Queen, say), you would need to
> find a higher court judgment to that effect relating to a similar event.
>  I very much doubt there is one.
>
> Clearly, in the context of a single ordinary funeral, it would not make
> sense to launch proceedings about this. Apart from the legal costs
> vastly exceeding the cost of a BSL interpreter, the funeral would take
> place long before the case could be heard. Maybe, somebody will bring
> such a case, simply to set a precedent, although there's a risk that the
> judgment would not go the way they want.
>

On 18/01/2024 15:42, Colin Bignell wrote:
> On 18/01/2024 14:50, SH wrote:
>>
>>
>> A person has died and arrangements are being made to hold a funeral or
>> cremation.
>>
>> Some of the service attendees live with a hearing loss and require
>> communication support such as live speech to text reporting or sign
>> language interpreting. This is typically £65 per hour plus travel time
>> and travel costs.
>>
>> Question 1. Whose legal responsibility is it to organise and provide
>> this under the Equality Act 2010?
>>
>> Is it the undertakers?
>> Is it the chucrh/place of worship etc/crematorium chapel?
>> Is is the the people who have instructed the undertakers and
>> church/place of worship/Crematorium Chapel?
>> Is it the hearing impaired audience member?
>>
>> Question 2:
>>
>> Who pays for this?
>>
>> The hearing imapired audience members?
>> The undertakers?
>> The Church/Place of worship/Crematorium chapel?
>> The estate of the person paying for their own burial/cremation service?
>>
>
> I rather doubt this will be the only occasion that any of them find the
> need to have communication support, so it might be a good idea to find
> out first whether any actually need any additional aid. They probably
> don't carry a BSL interpreter in their pockets, but may well have a
> speech to text app on their phones, or just be good at lip reading.
>
>

I know for a fact that one of the audience members *will" require speech
to text reporting as they are related to the deceased.

On 18/01/2024 16:02, GB wrote:
> On 18/01/2024 15:42, Colin Bignell wrote:
>
>>> Question 1. Whose legal responsibility is it
>>
>> I rather doubt this will be the only occasion that any of them find
>> the need to have communication support, so it might be a good idea to
>> find out first whether any actually need any additional aid. They
>> probably don't carry a BSL interpreter in their pockets, but may well
>> have a speech to text app on their phones, or just be good at lip
>> reading.
>>
>
> I find the question difficult to follow, really.
>
> We have a family funeral tomorrow, and we would simply do whatever is
> necessary to accommodate any needs of anyone who will be there. There
> would be no discussion about the costs, and certainly no question about
> legal responsibilities.
>
> So, I'm wondering whether there is a complicated family history behind
> the OP which makes it necessary to go beyond simply being nice to the
> people attending?
>
>
>
>
>

There are some members of the deceased's family that do not understand
deafness at all and would be quick to criticise the provision of STTR to
their deaf relativ for the service.

On 18/01/2024 14:50, SH wrote:

> A person has died and arrangements are being made to hold a funeral or
> cremation.
>
> Some of the service attendees live with a hearing loss and require
> communication support such as live speech to text reporting or sign
> language interpreting. This is typically £65 per hour plus travel time
> and travel costs.
>
> Question 1. Whose legal responsibility is it to organise and provide
> this under the Equality Act 2010?
>
> Is it the undertakers?
> Is it the chucrh/place of worship etc/crematorium chapel?
> Is is the the people who have instructed the undertakers and
> church/place of worship/Crematorium Chapel?
> Is it the hearing impaired audience member?
>
> Question 2:
>
> Who pays for this?
>
> The hearing imapired audience members?
> The undertakers?
> The Church/Place of worship/Crematorium chapel?
> The estate of the person paying for their own burial/cremation service?

Supply a printed copy of the service.

--
Max Demian

On 18/01/2024 16:20, Colin Bignell wrote:
> On 18/01/2024 16:02, GB wrote:
>> On 18/01/2024 15:42, Colin Bignell wrote:
>>
>>>> Question 1. Whose legal responsibility is it
>>>
>>> I rather doubt this will be the only occasion that any of them find
>>> the need to have communication support, so it might be a good idea to
>>> find out first whether any actually need any additional aid. They
>>> probably don't carry a BSL interpreter in their pockets, but may well
>>> have a speech to text app on their phones, or just be good at lip
>>> reading.
>>>
>>
>> I find the question difficult to follow, really.
>
> It is a question I would have first put to the funeral directors. Again,
> it won't be the first time they have encountered such a need. They might
> even have something like a large LCD screen that can display live speech
> to text.

buit they would need to book someone to come in to listen and do the
live typing up via palantype or stenograph.

>> We have a family funeral tomorrow, and we would simply do whatever is
>> necessary to accommodate any needs of anyone who will be there. There
>> would be no discussion about the costs, and certainly no question
>> about legal responsibilities.

the minimum cost of a BSL interpreter or a STTR is 3 hours, so thats £65
per hour PLUS VAT, plus travel time, plus travel costs so its very easy
to get a bill for around £500.

>> So, I'm wondering whether there is a complicated family history behind
>> the OP which makes it necessary to go beyond simply being nice to the
>> people attending?
>

Yeah, some family members do not understand deafness and will be quick
to criticise paying out $500 to ensure a deaf relative of theirs can
actually follow the service, feel included with an accessible service.

On 18/01/2024 17:35, Max Demian wrote:
> On 18/01/2024 14:50, SH wrote:
>
>> A person has died and arrangements are being made to hold a funeral or
>> cremation.
>>
>> Some of the service attendees live with a hearing loss and require
>> communication support such as live speech to text reporting or sign
>> language interpreting. This is typically £65 per hour plus travel time
>> and travel costs.
>>
>> Question 1. Whose legal responsibility is it to organise and provide
>> this under the Equality Act 2010?
>>
>> Is it the undertakers?
>> Is it the chucrh/place of worship etc/crematorium chapel?
>> Is is the the people who have instructed the undertakers and
>> church/place of worship/Crematorium Chapel?
>> Is it the hearing impaired audience member?
>>
>> Question 2:
>>
>> Who pays for this?
>>
>> The hearing imapired audience members?
>> The undertakers?
>> The Church/Place of worship/Crematorium chapel?
>> The estate of the person paying for their own burial/cremation service?
>
> Supply a printed copy of the service.
>

it will not contain what is said by the vicar/rector/priest/eulogy etc.

S.

On 18/01/2024 17:36, SH wrote:
> On 18/01/2024 17:35, Max Demian wrote:
>> On 18/01/2024 14:50, SH wrote:
>>
>>> A person has died and arrangements are being made to hold a funeral
>>> or cremation.
>>>
>>> Some of the service attendees live with a hearing loss and require
>>> communication support such as live speech to text reporting or sign
>>> language interpreting. This is typically £65 per hour plus travel
>>> time and travel costs.
>>>
>>> Question 1. Whose legal responsibility is it to organise and provide
>>> this under the Equality Act 2010?
>>>
>>> Is it the undertakers?
>>> Is it the chucrh/place of worship etc/crematorium chapel?
>>> Is is the the people who have instructed the undertakers and
>>> church/place of worship/Crematorium Chapel?
>>> Is it the hearing impaired audience member?
>>>
>>> Question 2:
>>>
>>> Who pays for this?
>>>
>>> The hearing imapired audience members?
>>> The undertakers?
>>> The Church/Place of worship/Crematorium chapel?
>>> The estate of the person paying for their own burial/cremation service?
>>
>> Supply a printed copy of the service.
>>
>
>
> it will not contain what is said by the vicar/rector/priest/eulogy etc.
>
> S.
>

plus the deaf person will be unable to tell where exactly which point in
the printed copy the service is actually at.

On 18/01/2024 17:30, SH wrote:
> On 18/01/2024 15:42, Colin Bignell wrote:
>> On 18/01/2024 14:50, SH wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> A person has died and arrangements are being made to hold a funeral
>>> or cremation.
>>>
>>> Some of the service attendees live with a hearing loss and require
>>> communication support such as live speech to text reporting or sign
>>> language interpreting. This is typically £65 per hour plus travel
>>> time and travel costs.
>>>
>>> Question 1. Whose legal responsibility is it to organise and provide
>>> this under the Equality Act 2010?
>>>
>>> Is it the undertakers?
>>> Is it the chucrh/place of worship etc/crematorium chapel?
>>> Is is the the people who have instructed the undertakers and
>>> church/place of worship/Crematorium Chapel?
>>> Is it the hearing impaired audience member?
>>>
>>> Question 2:
>>>
>>> Who pays for this?
>>>
>>> The hearing imapired audience members?
>>> The undertakers?
>>> The Church/Place of worship/Crematorium chapel?
>>> The estate of the person paying for their own burial/cremation service?
>>>
>>
>> I rather doubt this will be the only occasion that any of them find
>> the need to have communication support, so it might be a good idea to
>> find out first whether any actually need any additional aid. They
>> probably don't carry a BSL interpreter in their pockets, but may well
>> have a speech to text app on their phones, or just be good at lip
>> reading.
>>
>>
>
>
> I know for a fact that one of the audience members *will" require speech
> to text reporting as they are related to the deceased.
>

How do they cope in other situations?

--
Colin Bignell

On 18/01/2024 17:36, SH wrote:
> On 18/01/2024 17:35, Max Demian wrote:
>> On 18/01/2024 14:50, SH wrote:
>>
>>> A person has died and arrangements are being made to hold a funeral
>>> or cremation.
>>>
>>> Some of the service attendees live with a hearing loss and require
>>> communication support such as live speech to text reporting or sign
>>> language interpreting. This is typically £65 per hour plus travel
>>> time and travel costs.
>>>
>>> Question 1. Whose legal responsibility is it to organise and provide
>>> this under the Equality Act 2010?
>>>
>>> Is it the undertakers?
>>> Is it the chucrh/place of worship etc/crematorium chapel?
>>> Is is the the people who have instructed the undertakers and
>>> church/place of worship/Crematorium Chapel?
>>> Is it the hearing impaired audience member?
>>>
>>> Question 2:
>>>
>>> Who pays for this?
>>>
>>> The hearing imapired audience members?
>>> The undertakers?
>>> The Church/Place of worship/Crematorium chapel?
>>> The estate of the person paying for their own burial/cremation service?
>>
>> Supply a printed copy of the service.
>>
>
>
> it will not contain what is said by the vicar/rector/priest/eulogy etc.

IME, most people speaking at a funeral work from a script, so copies of
those could be provided.

--
Colin Bignell

On 18/01/2024 17:35, SH wrote:
> On 18/01/2024 16:20, Colin Bignell wrote:
>> On 18/01/2024 16:02, GB wrote:
>>> On 18/01/2024 15:42, Colin Bignell wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Question 1. Whose legal responsibility is it
>>>>
>>>> I rather doubt this will be the only occasion that any of them find
>>>> the need to have communication support, so it might be a good idea
>>>> to find out first whether any actually need any additional aid. They
>>>> probably don't carry a BSL interpreter in their pockets, but may
>>>> well have a speech to text app on their phones, or just be good at
>>>> lip reading.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I find the question difficult to follow, really.
>>
>> It is a question I would have first put to the funeral directors.
>> Again, it won't be the first time they have encountered such a need.
>> They might even have something like a large LCD screen that can
>> display live speech to text.
>
> buit they would need to book someone to come in to listen and do the
> live typing up via palantype or stenograph.

Not if they use a computer with a speech to text app. As can be seen
when watching live news with subtitles, they sometimes have errors, but
are generally very good.

>>> We have a family funeral tomorrow, and we would simply do whatever is
>>> necessary to accommodate any needs of anyone who will be there. There
>>> would be no discussion about the costs, and certainly no question
>>> about legal responsibilities.
>
> the minimum cost of a BSL interpreter or a STTR is 3 hours, so thats £65
> per hour PLUS VAT, plus travel time, plus travel costs so its very easy
> to get a bill for around £500.
>
>>> So, I'm wondering whether there is a complicated family history
>>> behind the OP which makes it necessary to go beyond simply being nice
>>> to the people attending?
>>
>
> Yeah, some family members do not understand deafness and will be quick
> to criticise paying out $500 to ensure a deaf relative of theirs can
> actually follow the service, feel included with an accessible service.
>

--
Colin Bignell

On 17:35 18 Jan 2024, SH said:
> On 18/01/2024 16:20, Colin Bignell wrote:
>> On 18/01/2024 16:02, GB wrote:
>>> On 18/01/2024 15:42, Colin Bignell wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Question 1. Whose legal responsibility is it
>>>>
>>>> I rather doubt this will be the only occasion that any of them find
>>>> the need to have communication support, so it might be a good idea
>>>> to find out first whether any actually need any additional aid.
>>>> They probably don't carry a BSL interpreter in their pockets, but
>>>> may well have a speech to text app on their phones, or just be good
>>>> at lip reading.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I find the question difficult to follow, really.
>>
>> It is a question I would have first put to the funeral directors.
>> Again, it won't be the first time they have encountered such a need.
>> They might even have something like a large LCD screen that can
>> display live speech to text.
>
> buit they would need to book someone to come in to listen and do the
> live typing up via palantype or stenograph.
>
>>> We have a family funeral tomorrow, and we would simply do whatever
>>> is necessary to accommodate any needs of anyone who will be there.
>>> There would be no discussion about the costs, and certainly no
>>> question about legal responsibilities.
>
> the minimum cost of a BSL interpreter or a STTR is 3 hours, so thats
> �65 per hour PLUS VAT, plus travel time, plus travel costs so its
> very easy to get a bill for around �500.
>
>>> So, I'm wondering whether there is a complicated family history
>>> behind the OP which makes it necessary to go beyond simply being
>>> nice to the people attending?
>
> Yeah, some family members do not understand deafness and will be quick
> to criticise paying out $500 to ensure a deaf relative of theirs can
> actually follow the service, feel included with an accessible service.

If the person in charge of the funeral (executor, next of kin, someone
appointed in the will, etc) decides to provide this facility, then I
presume these costs would be met by the deceased's estate.

On 16:02 18 Jan 2024, GB said:
> On 18/01/2024 15:42, Colin Bignell wrote:
>>>
>>> Question 1. Whose legal responsibility is it
>>
>> I rather doubt this will be the only occasion that any of them find the
>> need to have communication support, so it might be a good idea to find
>> out first whether any actually need any additional aid. They probably
>> don't carry a BSL interpreter in their pockets, but may well have a
>> speech to text app on their phones, or just be good at lip reading.
>>
>
> I find the question difficult to follow, really.
>
> We have a family funeral tomorrow, and we would simply do whatever is
> necessary to accommodate any needs of anyone who will be there. There
> would be no discussion about the costs, and certainly no question about
> legal responsibilities.
>
> So, I'm wondering whether there is a complicated family history behind
> the OP which makes it necessary to go beyond simply being nice to the
> people attending?

As the Equalities Act applies only to public bodies, maybe the question
is whether the funeral service is a private event or public.

I believe the public has no right to attend a funeral service, although in
practice it's not usually a problem if they do.

At a practical level, perhaps it would be sufficient in the circumstances
to provide a printed handout of the speech for those who can't hear it.

In message <uobngb$2lql5$4@dont-email.me>, at 17:35:07 on Thu, 18 Jan
2024, SH <i.love@spam.com> remarked:

>>> We have a family funeral tomorrow, and we would simply do whatever
>>>is necessary to accommodate any needs of anyone who will be there.
>>>There would be no discussion about the costs, and certainly no
>>>question about legal responsibilities.
>
>the minimum cost of a BSL interpreter or a STTR is 3 hours, so thats
>£65 per hour PLUS VAT, plus travel time, plus travel costs so its very
>easy to get a bill for around £500.

I'm told by someone who does it, that the going rate for a teacher-of
BSL is £40/hr, and no travelling expenses. Even if the bill *was* £500,
the average funeral costs £4k-£7k, plus maybe £50/head for the wake, so
it's not exactly a show-stopper.

If you want to raise some funds, rather than have guests buy flowers or
contribute to some feel-good charity, they could make a contribution to
the funeral costs - especially if that facilitates more people being
able to attend.
--
Roland Perry

On 18/01/2024 17:46, Colin Bignell wrote:
> On 18/01/2024 17:35, SH wrote:
>> On 18/01/2024 16:20, Colin Bignell wrote:
>>> On 18/01/2024 16:02, GB wrote:
>>>> On 18/01/2024 15:42, Colin Bignell wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Question 1. Whose legal responsibility is it
>>>>>
>>>>> I rather doubt this will be the only occasion that any of them find
>>>>> the need to have communication support, so it might be a good idea
>>>>> to find out first whether any actually need any additional aid.
>>>>> They probably don't carry a BSL interpreter in their pockets, but
>>>>> may well have a speech to text app on their phones, or just be good
>>>>> at lip reading.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I find the question difficult to follow, really.
>>>
>>> It is a question I would have first put to the funeral directors.
>>> Again, it won't be the first time they have encountered such a need.
>>> They might even have something like a large LCD screen that can
>>> display live speech to text.
>>
>> buit they would need to book someone to come in to listen and do the
>> live typing up via palantype or stenograph.
>
> Not if they use a computer with a speech to text app. As can be seen
> when watching live news with subtitles, they sometimes have errors, but
> are generally very good.
>
>>>> We have a family funeral tomorrow, and we would simply do whatever
>>>> is necessary to accommodate any needs of anyone who will be there.
>>>> There would be no discussion about the costs, and certainly no
>>>> question about legal responsibilities.
>>
>> the minimum cost of a BSL interpreter or a STTR is 3 hours, so thats
>> £65 per hour PLUS VAT, plus travel time, plus travel costs so its very
>> easy to get a bill for around £500.
>>
>>>> So, I'm wondering whether there is a complicated family history
>>>> behind the OP which makes it necessary to go beyond simply being
>>>> nice to the people attending?
>>>
>>
>> Yeah, some family members do not understand deafness and will be quick
>> to criticise paying out $500 to ensure a deaf relative of theirs can
>> actually follow the service, feel included with an accessible service.
>>
>

they are dependent on good audio qaulity and minimal bakground noise. A
human ear is still better than a microphone badly placed, low level
background noise, ADC, AI & ML and internet dependent STTR software.

On 18/01/2024 17:44, Colin Bignell wrote:
> On 18/01/2024 17:30, SH wrote:
>> On 18/01/2024 15:42, Colin Bignell wrote:
>>> On 18/01/2024 14:50, SH wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A person has died and arrangements are being made to hold a funeral
>>>> or cremation.
>>>>
>>>> Some of the service attendees live with a hearing loss and require
>>>> communication support such as live speech to text reporting or sign
>>>> language interpreting. This is typically £65 per hour plus travel
>>>> time and travel costs.
>>>>
>>>> Question 1. Whose legal responsibility is it to organise and provide
>>>> this under the Equality Act 2010?
>>>>
>>>> Is it the undertakers?
>>>> Is it the chucrh/place of worship etc/crematorium chapel?
>>>> Is is the the people who have instructed the undertakers and
>>>> church/place of worship/Crematorium Chapel?
>>>> Is it the hearing impaired audience member?
>>>>
>>>> Question 2:
>>>>
>>>> Who pays for this?
>>>>
>>>> The hearing imapired audience members?
>>>> The undertakers?
>>>> The Church/Place of worship/Crematorium chapel?
>>>> The estate of the person paying for their own burial/cremation service?
>>>>
>>>
>>> I rather doubt this will be the only occasion that any of them find
>>> the need to have communication support, so it might be a good idea to
>>> find out first whether any actually need any additional aid. They
>>> probably don't carry a BSL interpreter in their pockets, but may well
>>> have a speech to text app on their phones, or just be good at lip
>>> reading.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> I know for a fact that one of the audience members *will" require
>> speech to text reporting as they are related to the deceased.
>>
>
> How do they cope in other situations?
>
The deaf person uses STTR at work.

With respect to other critical family members, they live some distance
away and lead independent lives and their paths do not usually cross.

On 18/01/2024 18:39, SH wrote:
> On 18/01/2024 17:46, Colin Bignell wrote:
>> On 18/01/2024 17:35, SH wrote:
>>> On 18/01/2024 16:20, Colin Bignell wrote:
>>>> On 18/01/2024 16:02, GB wrote:
>>>>> On 18/01/2024 15:42, Colin Bignell wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Question 1. Whose legal responsibility is it
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I rather doubt this will be the only occasion that any of them
>>>>>> find the need to have communication support, so it might be a good
>>>>>> idea to find out first whether any actually need any additional
>>>>>> aid. They probably don't carry a BSL interpreter in their pockets,
>>>>>> but may well have a speech to text app on their phones, or just be
>>>>>> good at lip reading.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I find the question difficult to follow, really.
>>>>
>>>> It is a question I would have first put to the funeral directors.
>>>> Again, it won't be the first time they have encountered such a need.
>>>> They might even have something like a large LCD screen that can
>>>> display live speech to text.
>>>
>>> buit they would need to book someone to come in to listen and do the
>>> live typing up via palantype or stenograph.
>>
>> Not if they use a computer with a speech to text app. As can be seen
>> when watching live news with subtitles, they sometimes have errors,
>> but are generally very good.
>>
>>>>> We have a family funeral tomorrow, and we would simply do whatever
>>>>> is necessary to accommodate any needs of anyone who will be there.
>>>>> There would be no discussion about the costs, and certainly no
>>>>> question about legal responsibilities.
>>>
>>> the minimum cost of a BSL interpreter or a STTR is 3 hours, so thats
>>> £65 per hour PLUS VAT, plus travel time, plus travel costs so its
>>> very easy to get a bill for around £500.
>>>
>>>>> So, I'm wondering whether there is a complicated family history
>>>>> behind the OP which makes it necessary to go beyond simply being
>>>>> nice to the people attending?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yeah, some family members do not understand deafness and will be
>>> quick to criticise paying out $500 to ensure a deaf relative of
>>> theirs can actually follow the service, feel included with an
>>> accessible service.
>>>
>>
>
> they are dependent on good audio qaulity and minimal bakground noise. A
> human ear is still better than a microphone badly placed, low level
> background noise, ADC, AI & ML and internet dependent STTR software.
>

However, even if the Act applies to a funeral service, it does not
require the best possible option, simply what it is reasonable to provide.

--
Colin Bignell

On Thursday 18 January 2024 at 17:47:39 UTC, Colin Bignell wrote:
> > buit they would need to book someone to come in to listen and do the
> > live typing up via palantype or stenograph.
> Not if they use a computer with a speech to text app. As can be seen
> when watching live news with subtitles, they sometimes have errors, but
> are generally very good.

If speech to text software is used, it is usually used by a trained "re-speaker" who repeats what is being said, enunciating clearly, in a sound-proof studio, using software which has been trained/optimised for that re-speaker.

Using speech to text on ordinary humans will give results similar to Youtube automatic subtitling, which is generally useless on anyone with any form of 'accent'.

Owain

On 18/01/2024 18:39, SH wrote:

> they are dependent on good audio qaulity and minimal bakground noise. A
> human ear is still better than a microphone badly placed, low level
> background noise, ADC, AI & ML and internet dependent STTR software.
>

If the service is being held indoors, all venues I have been at have had
a microphone for whoever's speaking plus an induction loop system for
the hard of hearing. The loop may well not work for your relative, but
there may be an interface for the computer with the STTR?

I suggest a chat with the undertakers and/or the venue to find out
what's feasible.

On 18/01/2024 18:18, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <uobngb$2lql5$4@dont-email.me>, at 17:35:07 on Thu, 18 Jan
> 2024, SH <i.love@spam.com> remarked:
>
>>>> We have a family funeral tomorrow, and we would simply do whatever
>>>> is  necessary to accommodate any needs of anyone who will be there.
>>>> There  would be no discussion about the costs, and certainly no
>>>> question  about legal responsibilities.
>>
>> the minimum cost of a BSL interpreter or a STTR is 3 hours, so thats
>> £65 per hour PLUS VAT, plus travel time, plus travel costs so its very
>> easy to get a bill for around £500.
>
> I'm told by someone who does it, that the going rate for a teacher-of
> BSL is £40/hr, and no travelling expenses. Even if the bill *was* £500,
> the average funeral costs £4k-£7k, plus maybe £50/head for the wake, so
> it's not exactly a show-stopper.

If I were the deaf person, I might be reluctant to have £500 (or even
half that) spent on a BSL interpreter if it were just for my benefit. It
would embarrass me, and I'd be aware that other people might regard it
as rather expensive, so I wouldn't want to upset them.

The OP said "Some of the service attendees live with a hearing loss and
require communication support", so £500 for several people's benefit
might be much more acceptable.

>
> If you want to raise some funds, rather than have guests buy flowers or
> contribute to some feel-good charity, they could make a contribution to
> the funeral costs - especially if that facilitates more people being
> able to attend.

In message <uoc0pf$2nobi$2@dont-email.me>, at 20:13:37 on Thu, 18 Jan
2024, GB <NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid> remarked:
>On 18/01/2024 18:18, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <uobngb$2lql5$4@dont-email.me>, at 17:35:07 on Thu, 18 Jan
>>2024, SH <i.love@spam.com> remarked:
>>
>>>>> We have a family funeral tomorrow, and we would simply do whatever
>>>>>is  necessary to accommodate any needs of anyone who will be there.
>>>>>There  would be no discussion about the costs, and certainly no
>>>>>question  about legal responsibilities.
>>>
>>> the minimum cost of a BSL interpreter or a STTR is 3 hours, so thats
>>>£65 per hour PLUS VAT, plus travel time, plus travel costs so its
>>>very easy to get a bill for around £500.

>> I'm told by someone who does it, that the going rate for a
>>teacher-of BSL is £40/hr, and no travelling expenses. Even if the
>>bill *was* £500, the average funeral costs £4k-£7k, plus maybe
>>£50/head for the wake, so it's not exactly a show-stopper.
>
>If I were the deaf person, I might be reluctant to have £500 (or even
>half that) spent on a BSL interpreter if it were just for my benefit.
>It would embarrass me, and I'd be aware that other people might regard
>it as rather expensive, so I wouldn't want to upset them.

That may be your speculation about the situation should you find
yourself in it, but my experience is that persons with disabilities
are so fed up with being airbrushed out of society, that when suitable
provision is made their reaction is "thank god someone finally made the
effort".

>The OP said "Some of the service attendees live with a hearing loss and
>require communication support", so £500 for several people's benefit
>might be much more acceptable.

The more people there are with the need, the less one would need to be
apologetic about meeting it.
--
Roland Perry